Calling for true regional rugby that includes the whole of Wales. Every club and fan equally. Fully integrated and aligned. We'd be so much stronger together.
Love Llanelli, Neath, Swansea, Cardiff & Newport, but EVERY PART OF WALES IS IMPORTANT. Every club and every fan. So, let's… stop the bickering - include everyone - work together - tap into every resource - and finally fulfil our potential.
0 from 5. So sad to see. Welsh rugby is in desperate trouble.
If you truly care it’s time to speak up and be honest.
We need a true regional system.
We need to include everyone.
We need a complete reset.
Please click LIKE and REPOST if you want to make a difference.
We are now 0 from 4 in this Six Nations. We have won just 2 of our last 15 Six Nations matches (against Sco in 2022 & Ita in 2023). We need to rethink and restructure.
Please LIKE and REPOST if you think it’s time to adopt a true regional system that includes the whole of Wales.
All the great historic clubs of Wales should now be at semi-pro or community level (so that we can have larger regional / provincial teams at professional level).
Would be amazing to breathe new life into all the old club rivalries again ❤️
Let's fix this structure 🙏
We've tried 3 small standalone club sides and a merger. We've given it 20 years. It's quite obviously not working.
It's time to stop begging the WRU - a body that represents the whole of Wales - to invest in a system that doesn't represent the whole of Wales. It's utter madness.
We’ve never had true regional rugby in Wales – we’ve only tried an awkward halfway compromise between the old club system and a proper regional system. The current crisis is not the result of regional rugby being the wrong idea, but of failing to do it correctly at the outset...
Devastated for Neath RFC 😞
The top tier of Welsh club rugby - with no
@LlanelliRFC
@RFCMerthyr
@neathrfc
@PontypriddRFC
This mess has been caused by our refusal to get the correct entities at professional level. We need a true regional system with club meritocracy below.
We are 0 from 3 in this Six Nations. We have finished 5th in 3 of the past 4 tournaments (with only 1 win in each of those). It’s time to restructure. Our 4 struggling pro teams should undergo 2 mergers to make EAST and WEST super-regions – plus a (development?) region up NORTH.
If you want successful regions...
1) Actually create some regions
2) Work out how many we can afford (it's 3)
3) Make sure all of Wales is represented and included (that means 1 in the North and 2 in the South)
4) Make sure they're underpinned by a thriving semi-pro club game
🗣️"We all want the regions to be successful."
WRU interim chief Nigel Walker discusses the possibility of a Welsh region reaching one of the European finals in Cardiff next year 🏴
#BBCRugby
Heartbreaking. Enough is enough. Time for 3 true regional teams. It’s long overdue. Can’t have a competitive national side without competitive pro teams. The system is all wrong. Time to include ALL OF WALES.
This is an appalling mess. So so sad. Welsh rugby is still refusing to accept that we'd be better with a system that includes everyone. Far too many fans and clubs still happy to exclude others. We don't deserve any success unless we learn to work together. Absolute shambles.
Newport and RGC 1404 are two of nine teams announced for Welsh Rugby's Elite Domestic Competition, starting in September ✅
There is one place still available, with Cardiff, Pontypridd, Llanelli and Merthyr not yet included 🏉
#BBCRugby
"Some people have slammed me for saying we need a region up north, but look at the interest in Wrexham FC," he said. "Rugby needs to tap into every possible resource."
Spot on from
@samwarburton_
👏
(Especially when your entire country has a population of just 3.1 million!)
“As a sport we have to accept that until we make the game more commercially viable earnings can’t be what they have been. It’s completely obvious it’s never been sustainable”
Interview with Lions great Sam Warburton, one of rugby’s sharpest minds
18 clubs in Wales had achieved first-class status by the late 1980s (and with London Welsh this made 19 clubs in the Unofficial Championship). Unforgivably, many of these clubs and their fans were totally forgotten about when the regions were launched a decade and a bit later.
Welsh rugby continues to suffer because of our refusal to include everyone and work together. Tribalism and parochialism are still preventing us from setting up a true regional system underpinned by our great historic clubs. We need unity now more than ever. Time is running out.
Far too many Welsh rugby fans would still rather stand alone and lose, than join together and win. There is strength in numbers and we don't deserve any success until we learn to work together. What's happened to our ambition? Don't we want to beat New Zealand or win a World Cup?
@davidjusteat
I'm sorry David, but the biggest issue is quite obviously our refusal to include the whole of Wales. We have a tiny population, yet we're still ignoring so many potential customers. It's a recipe for disaster and we're marching towards oblivion.
Love Llanelli, Neath, Swansea, Cardiff & Newport, but EVERY PART OF WALES IS IMPORTANT. Every club and every fan. So, let's… stop the bickering - include everyone - work together - tap into every resource - and finally fulfil our potential.
Wales & Ireland both have 4 pro teams beneath their national side. They have 4 true regional / provincial teams that include the entire country. We have 3 small standalone club sides and an unequal Swansea-Neath merger. They’re willing to include everyone and work together.
Wales is the smallest Tier 1 rugby nation and this has profound implications for how we structure our teams below national level.
We have to maximise player development and fan involvement. This means including every part of Wales. We have to tap into every possible resource.
With a tiny population of just 3.1 million, we are the smallest of the 10 countries in The Rugby Championship & Six Nations. To compete, we need a highly efficient system that maximises participation. We have to include everybody. There’s no other way to reach our full potential.
We don't have the money for 4 pro teams in South Wales.
(Especially when 3 of these are essentially standalone club sides with extremely limited appeal to fans of other historic clubs. No wonder ticket sales are so woefully inadequate.)
We need 3 fully-inclusive regional teams.
Not here to criticise the WRU. Not here to criticise the regions. Not here to criticise anyone. Just trying to help. There has to be a way of ending this constant infighting. The future of rugby in Wales depends on it.
Would be great to see Welsh teams in an Anglo-Welsh league - as long as these Welsh teams are larger regions that represent and include the whole of Wales - and aren’t just smaller club sides like Cardiff or Llanelli that are absolutely hated by fans of neighbouring clubs.
100%.
Better for fans, atmosphere fantastic. Last 4 home games vs Welsh & English sides have been 4 x home sell outs.
Financially, the benefit from match days alone is not even comparable 🙌
Needs some brave calls from administrators…
Amazing that this superb thread was posted all the way back in May 2022...
It's now more obvious than ever that our 4 pro teams should undergo 2 mergers to make WEST and EAST super-regions.
Then add a 3rd (development?) region up NORTH and Welsh rugby would improve hugely 🙏
Just seen your post
@samwarburton_
regarding cutting the regions down to 3 or create a potential merger between 2.
Here is my 8 step resolution to the future of Welsh rugby tweeted in May 2022. Somethings got to give!
"Having four regions within a 60 mile radius doesn’t make it easier to drive commercial incomes, with them often chasing the same revenue targets. In the case of Ireland its four sides are spread out to cover the entire land mass, both north and south."
Excellent piece...
We're destroying what used to be our national sport - all because of our refusal to work together to form true regional / provincial entities at professional level.
This catastrophic failure to collaborate is now ruining the semi-pro and community club games below.
"Welsh Rugby is living a lie"
This is an incredible article, a "healthy dose of the truth" and a must read for every true Welsh Rugby fan. Written 10 years ago. The demise it warned about is now evident to all, yet our nation's sporting heritage is still being held to ransom.
20 years ago, we failed to create a true regional tier in between our clubs and country.
Now, instead of admitting that mistake and correcting it, we’re looking to create a tier in between regional level and Premiership level in an effort to prop up the faulty regional system...
UNITY - True regional/provincial teams at professional level (perhaps N, E & W), that fairly represent and include all of Wales.
TRIBALISM – True regions underpinned by semi-pro club competitions that honour the great Welsh club rivalries of the past.
We believe UNITY & TRIBALISM can co-exist. Tribalism is great if it stays on the pitch, but we desperately need strategic unity off it. We need a fair, inclusive regional system that includes all fans and allows the club tribalism to drive up standards instead of harming us all.
Not including all of Wales - by setting up a true regional system - has resulted in two vicious circles. Pressuring the WRU to hand over even more money to incorrect entities won't solve these problems. It's time to include and utilise the whole of Wales. There's no other way.
Creating a tier between regional level and Premiership level is so obviously a bad idea. Trying to prop up a failed system isn't the right call. Let's just admit that we've got the wrong entities at regional level. Time to create a true regional tier between clubs and country.
Sadly, the 4 regions don’t reflect the rich history and diversity of the Welsh club game. Far too many of our great historic clubs aren’t aligned with any of them. We need to restructure, get the correct entities at regional level and make sure all our clubs are fully integrated.
1. In what ways, if any, does the current Welsh domestic elite game align with and reflect the rich history & diversity of the Welsh domestic elite game?
2. Asking fans & wider communities to switch sporting allegiance to an actual or perceived historic rival is always nonsense?
Welsh rugby is deeply interconnected - with all parts affected by each other. Getting one tier wrong affects the whole pyramid. The faulty regional tier is now clearly affecting the national side. The tier below has already suffered, but will only be damaged further by the EDC.
We’ve never had true regional rugby in Wales – we’ve only tried an awkward halfway compromise between the old club system and a proper regional system. The current crisis is not the result of regional rugby being the wrong idea, but of failing to do it correctly at the outset...
Got lambasted a couple of weeks ago for saying that the competitiveness of our regions had declined over the last 20 years. This graphic illustrates the point we were trying to make and we take absolutely no pleasure in it whatsoever.
🏴 THE DECLINE OF WELSH RUGBY
Highest team finish:
2006/07: 1st
2011/12: 2nd
2017/18: 3rd
2019/20: 4th
2021/22: 9th
2022/23: 10th
Welsh Rugby now represents three of the four worst teams in the URC.
Every Irish and South African team finished above the best Welsh side.
"A healthy regional game is the key ingredient to a successful national side, and in order to achieve this the WRU must work with its professional sides to achieve the right level of investment."
Umm... we need actual regional sides first.
Let's invest in the correct entities.
JPR back in 2015...
1 region in the West
1 region in the East
Underpinned by an 8 team Premiership
"Williams believes the quality of Wales’ top stars is masking the domestic problem but fears for the system when the current crop finish their careers."
Yet another throwback to an ex-player who cares enough to speak up - and who knows that significant change is needed, not more fudging or tinkering.
This time from Mar 2023.
The 4 pro teams of South Wales should undergo mergers to form 2 true regional sides - WEST and EAST.
It's 2024. Welsh rugby is dying. Time for all parties to start working together for the good of Welsh rugby as a whole. Time to prioritise success over sentimentality. Time to embrace change. Time to look to the future and stop clinging to the past. Time to create true regions.
Welsh rugby continues to suffer because of our refusal to include everyone and work together. Tribalism and parochialism are still preventing us from setting up a true regional system underpinned by our great historic clubs. We need unity now more than ever. Time is running out.
"...many feel there is barely enough money to maintain four sides, and on the field there is a strong argument Wales only have enough quality players for three."
Agreed, but cutting 1 team won't work. We need to create 3 new entities (true regions between clubs and country).
Very interesting to hear
@Jamiehuwroberts
comparing centralised and benefactor models on BT Sport. Would people be more open to accepting a centralised model in Wales if we actually get a significantly reformed and modernised WRU?
Another throwback to an ex-player caring enough about the future of Welsh rugby to suggest the kind of radical change that's needed... 🏴❤️
This time from Feb 2023.
Things will only get worse if we keep delaying the inevitable. It's time for more people to start speaking up 🙏
2/2 - on the later that’s either 3 new teams, North, East and West regions, or sadly remove / merge two regions.
They say don’t fix what’s not broken. Well it’s clearly broken, so something needs fixing.
Thoughts? 👇🏻
"Many within the game believe Welsh rugby doesn't have the money or enough quality players to have four professional sides, and that three is the right number ... Hansen revealed he pushed for three teams in 2003 before tribalism got in the way..."
Totally understand that talk of changing/evolving is unbelievably difficult for many of us, but I don't know how much more pain Welsh rugby can tolerate before we merge our 4 pro teams into West & East.
Time to listen to
@Coombs_A
@samwarburton_
@mikephillips009
@TommyBowe
etc ?
🆕 Scrum V podcast! 🔥
😬 No head coach, no director of rugby...and not enough players.
🧐
@g_r_owen
&
@laurenemmaj
assess what next for Cardiff after the departure of Dai Young.
🎧 to the latest pod ⤵️
#BBCRugby
The current regional system excludes the whole of North Wales (population 750,000) and has left many fans of clubs outside “The Big 4” (Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff & Newport) feeling like they’re not properly represented. Sustainable success is not possible unless this changes.
Governance reform was long overdue. Hope this is a positive first step towards a brighter future 👍
Structural reform is also long overdue. Hope better governance points us in the direction of a true regional system between club and country that includes the whole of Wales 🙏
And yet another throwback to an ex-player who cares about our pro teams being competitive - and who knows that big changes are needed. 🙏
This time from Nov 2023.
Wish more people were this realistic about how many fully pro teams we can sustain in South Wales. 👍🏴
That's a good result for a young Scarlets team v near test
LEINSTER TEAM imo. They will learn and gain so much experience from that. As I've said before, this season will be tough. We will only compete against these teams going forward if we go down to 2 regions. EAST + WEST 👍
@TheVietGwent
@laurenemmaj
She's right - "we're miles behind". Gatland also right - Irish structures are the ones to emulate. Need to reduce to 3 pro teams (new club-neutral entities with larger catchments). Many saying this privately. Time for more people who care (like
@laurenemmaj
) to say it publicly.
We don’t dislike the regions in any way. This has always been about whether the current structure is the best that Welsh rugby can do. It is possible to like the regions (and support one), but still see that the structure is sub-optimal and hugely problematic. This can’t go on.
With a tiny population of just 3.1 million, we are the smallest of the 10 countries in The Rugby Championship & Six Nations. To compete, we need a highly efficient system that maximises participation. We have to include everybody. There’s no other way to reach our full potential.
Error: "A true regional system won't work because the fans will never support it"
Truth: This is our only option if we want to remain competitive and stop pro rugby dying in Wales. All true fans - who actually care about Welsh rugby - should support proposals for a better system.
In 2003, clubs and fans failed to see the need for (and benefits of) a true regional system and insisted on standing alone. Somehow, many still can’t see the need for it despite 20 years of decline. Will we ever learn to work together and unleash the full power of 3.1 million?!
Superb book. Great reminder of how people from every part of Wales have contributed towards Welsh Rugby over the course of our history. This remains true today. This contribution deserves to be recognised. Everyone should feel valued and included by our pro team regional system.
"...there are those in the upper echelons of the WRU who believe money should be invested in three national centres of excellence in south, west and north Wales."
👀
(Presumably... South East, South West and North Wales.)
@TheVietGwent
Agreed Ger. ALL the work is done by the pro club academies. ALL those working at these academies are born and raised in Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff or Newport too. No contribution is ever made by any other part of Wales - at any point - before or after the spaceship lands.
The current regional system excludes the whole of North Wales (population 750,000) and has left many fans of clubs outside “The Big 4” (Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff & Newport) feeling like they’re not properly represented. Sustainable success is not possible unless this changes.
@Coombs_A
A super-region in West Wales would be fantastic, but thinking of it as a Scarlets-Ospreys merger is perhaps unhelpful. It should be a team representing every club and every fan in the whole area - not just Llanelli & Neath-Swansea.
"...20 odd years ago, we went from a club-based system to a regional system ... I think if people who were responsible at the time had their time again, they may have done it slightly differently."
(We actually went to a halfway compromise system, but yes, you'd sure hope so...)
1/2
As the real understatement of the day was "we certainly didn't convert everybody who was watching club rugby into regional rugby", how precisely does
@NigelWalkerWRU
believe the 2003 resource concentration should have been done properly and without such a botch job...?
"Six-year deal signed in bid to end Welsh rugby crisis"
Does anyone really believe that this deal will end the crisis?!
We need to include all of Wales.
We have to face up to the elephant in the room.
Most of us suggesting change aren't calling for the current fans and benefactors to leave. We're only asking that they consider opening their arms to the rest of Wales - so that we can all work together and pull in the same direction.
We'd be so much stronger together 💪 🏴 ❤️
For discussion. Suggestions for grouping the 22 unitary authorities together. Population figures from the 2021 census from the Office for National Statistics. Colour choices essentially arbitrary – but loosely based on darkening / altering the 3 colours on the welsh flag.
Many are still claiming that the WRU just needs to hand over more money to the current 4 teams and everything will be fine.
Over 70% of the people who answered this poll disagree. Reducing the number of pro teams would be a big change, but plenty seem to think this is necessary.
"...from a business point of view an Anglo-Welsh league would be a better outcome for Wales ... England is a better eco-system for Wales to operate in."
Current Welsh teams + Anglo-Welsh league = small improvement
True Welsh regions + Anglo-Welsh league = massive improvement
@RugbyInsideLine
Well, we can't afford 4 teams and many agree that 3 is probably the right number. Having 2 teams in the south and 1 in the north would be a massive step forward for Welsh rugby. Would have to be entirely new club-neutral entities though, not mergers or relocated teams.
"The provincial route" was clearly the right way to go, but we've never tried it properly.
Underpinning our regional teams should lie all the original clubs rich in history, tradition and rivalry.
It's not too late for Welsh rugby to get this right, but time is running out.
Official leagues started in 1990-91 and there were 13 seasons before regional rugby. The top table was reduced to between 8 and 12 teams, but 3 new clubs still managed to force their way up and in amongst the 18 first-class clubs -
@caerphillyrugby
,
@DunvantRFC
&
@TreorchyZebras
.
@hicksap10
@turfcreative
@Oweninsouts
@AllWalesSport
There have been 29 teams in the top tier of Welsh club rugby since the late 1980s. For 20 years we've had... Scarlets = Llanelli, Ospreys = Swansea + Neath, Cardiff = Cardiff, Dragons = Newport. What about fans of all those other clubs?
"There needs to be more investment into all areas of the game, and it's worth remembering the whole thing is a pyramid."
Sadly, it's not a pyramid though. Our biggest problem is how poorly constructed this "pyramid" is. We can do so much better. This structure has to be fixed 🙏
'...the next piece in the jigsaw...' - WRU CEO Walker
Major boost for Women’s and Girls rugby sees three new Player Development Centres:
· East: Cardiff Metropolitan University
· West: Swansea University
· North Rygbi Gogledd Cymru at Parc Eiras
More:
We need “The Big 4” to thrive, but they can’t do it all on their own. We’ve always depended on players from clubs like Aberavon, Bridgend, Ebbw Vale, Maesteg, Neath, Newbridge, Pontypool & Pontypridd. It’s time we realise how much we depend on FANS from all these other clubs too.
"...this crisis is structural and could be terminal. Wales is at high risk of becoming a second tier rugby nation permanently..." (Pontypridd RFC board member Mark Rhydderch-Roberts)
Fantastic article from
@sionbarry
Club finishing positions for the 13 seasons from 1990-91 (start of official leagues) to 2002-03 (last season before regional rugby). The 7 dominant clubs are in colour for ease of comparison. Chill out everyone – this is just for context. Not trying to start an argument!
@TheComp12192824
@TheVietGwent
@Owenins
We'd be so much stronger together... All parties need to work together to create larger regional/provincial teams that include and represent all the clubs and fans within their boundaries equally - and that cover every part of our beautiful country 👍 🏴
We believe UNITY & TRIBALISM can co-exist. Tribalism is great if it stays on the pitch, but we desperately need strategic unity off it. We need a fair, inclusive regional system that includes all fans and allows the club tribalism to drive up standards instead of harming us all.
@TheVietGwent
RFU chairman, Tom Ilube...
"We currently contribute £25m to the Premiership each year but cannot continue to invest in failing business models ... That means tough investment decisions. All three clubs that have failed this season have had fragile business models for many years."
@anthonyjcook
We're calling for all parties to work together for the good of Welsh rugby as a whole. Everybody knows that the system we're proposing could be afforded if that happened. No system is financially viable so long as all this infighting continues (including the current one).
@Richard99366022
Also finished 2nd twice and 3rd four times, won the WRU Challenge Cup in 1996 and 2002 and had a decent record in Europe. I'm not agreeing that they were "the outstanding Welsh side", but it's just not true/helpful to pretend they weren't right up there.
Club finishing positions for the 13 seasons from 1990-91 (start of official leagues) to 2002-03 (last season before regional rugby). The 7 dominant clubs are in colour for ease of comparison. Chill out everyone – this is just for context. Not trying to start an argument!
Love Llanelli, Neath, Swansea, Cardiff & Newport, but EVERY PART OF WALES IS IMPORTANT. Every club and every fan. So, let's… stop the bickering - include everyone - work together - tap into every resource - and finally fulfil our potential.
@RugbyPhilBB
@turfcreative
@Oweninsouts
@AllWalesSport
Yeah, fans have free choice. If Cardiff Blues had been disbanded instead of Celtic Warriors - then which of the remaining 4 would you have supported with your free choice? Or would you have been excluded?
@HuwGriffinRugby
@Coombs_A
The club association was definitely unhelpful. They should have been new, larger, club-neutral entities. Even simple nicknames (like NZ - Chiefs, Hurricanes etc) would have been better than including place names (like Cardiff) or old club nicknames (like Scarlets).
@TheVietGwent
Black and amber on the club badge?
Failing to drop "Dragons" - the superclub nickname when Newport came before Gwent?
Failing to rebrand as Gwent Rugby or Gwent RFC?
If we're going to continue with 4 pro teams, then they need to be fully inclusive and club-neutral.
"...professionalism spurred Ireland into a bottom-to-top alignment that is now delivering at the highest levels."
Great piece by
@mdmaylwin
. Essential reading 👍
@LePancho4
This is exactly how we feel on an emotional level. However, on an intellectual level, we just can't see our pro teams or Wales ever being competitive again unless we leave the tribalism (which we love) at semi-professional level. Just our opinion. Happy for others to disagree 👍
@TheVietGwent
@CapS45
Never said success would be 'guaranteed', 'immediate' or 'easy'. Please don't misrepresent what I've said. I think success would be much more likely - take a reasonable amount of time - and be far from easy.
@RugbyPhilBB
@CapS45
@Richard99366022
@RugbyProgress
@Drmint99
@Up_The_Bwlch
Is there anything we can say to prove that this isn't Powell (or Robins or Rob Butcher)?! Unfortunately, we've unfollowed you because we're not interested in the constant unpleasantness. Some who disagree with us are still helping the discussion. You're not one of them.
@iamcharlieevans
You'll no doubt get people telling you Gatland didn't write that (a ghostwriter did), or that he didn't mean it (he was just trying to sell more copies). The truth is - he thought carefully about it - he wrote it - he meant it - he had it published. A lot still holds true 👍
The Welsh Premiership (semi-pro tier below regional level) has been the top tier of club competition since 2003-04. Here are the 23 clubs that have featured in those 20 years (correct to the best of our knowledge). New appearances at the top table for 8 clubs (shown in yellow).
@Up_The_Bwlch
Yeah, we made mistakes & did some damage 20 years ago, but there's still big interest in the national side (& decent enough enthusiasm at grassroots level). Hoping we've got one last chance to sort out the bits in between, before interest in the national side begins to dwindle 🙏